Jujube Banned from Chowhound?

jujubebanned.JPGAnyone who participates on discussion boards knows that there are rules the posters must follow. You can’t provoke others, or make offensive posts. Religious, sexual and overtly political topics are often off-limits. Many places make sure that all discussions stay on topic. When a poster violates the forum’s rules, that post is deleted. If the poster is a recidivist offender, he or she is eventually banished from the forum.

It seems that one particular food discussion board, Chowhound, has become notoriously arbitrary in how it polices its board. In fact, I posted the following earlier today in response to a question about Triangle restaurants that could handle a business dinner for 14:

You could give Jujube in Chapel Hill a try. They have an area off to the side that would work. The upstairs of Piedmont could work well. If you want to go to Raleigh, Fins has a nice private room and a semi-private room. You really won’t have any problems finding a decent place. An in Cary is a very nice restaurant. As said before, it really depends on what you’re looking for.

Pretty benign, right? I was simply making recommendations on places I know pretty well. Nothing earth-shattering by any means. However, within seconds of posting, I receive this email:

Hi Varmint, you’ve been sent the following by a Chowhound moderator:

Dear Varmint:

We are not currently accepting postings about Jujube. Please refrain from posting further about this place while we investigate a problem with some postings about this restaurant.

The Chowhound Team

So I picked up the phone and called Charlie Deal, the owner of Jujube, who told me that this has been going on for months. Deal, who posts at Chowhound, eGullet and other forums under the user name “detlefchef”, has no idea why discussion of his restaurant has been banned. Anyone who even mentions “Jujube” in the discussion will have his post deleted. Individuals have even posted questions on the Chowhound “Site Talk” forum, asking why the ban, but those posts get deleted, too. What’s the big conspiracy? Is Charlie Deal a mass murderer who lures people to his restaurant for their final demise? Is Jujube a front for the Russian mob? Are those shiitake mushrooms he serves laced with psilocybin? It’s got to be something that serious, because Chowhound doesn’t want us talking about Jujube.

Some posts get through, as a search of Chowhound indicates that Jujube was mentioned as recently as September 29th, so I really haven’t a clue which posts are targeted by the Chowhound moderators.

Banning discussions of particular restaurants is nothing new on Chowhound, as the blog Eater frequently reports. And they have banned a lot of users for being restaurant shills (often unfounded). But to institute a complete ban of all discussion of a restaurant — a well-respected chef-owned restaurant — without letting anyone know the reasons why is peculiar at best, and downright tyrannical and paranoid at worst.

Of course, I have a solution: let’s just call the restaurant something else – our own code word for Jujube. That’s what I did as a follow-up, calling it “Voldemort”, the restaurant that shan’t be named.


36 Responses to Jujube Banned from Chowhound?

  1. detlef says:

    It is rather odd. Varmint is right, no less than a half dozen people have given me similar phone calls about having their posts gunned. One person, who posts constantly on a number of the Chowhound boards about anything from Cuban food in Boston to wine pairings e-mailed me the link to a post he made to the site complaint board calling them out on this practice. I wasn’t quick enough. His post had been deleted by the time I managed to check it out.

    It is really unfortunate because chowhound is and can be a valuable resource for diners. That said, I have gone toe to toe with them on more than one occasion about their rather over aggressive policing of the boards. There have been a number of occasions when I felt somebody was making posts that reflected unreal expectations of restaurants (not mine, mind you). Be they panning a neighborhood place for one misstep or expecting the meal of a lifetime for $10 or less. Everytime I took up for the industry, my post was deleted. Their excuse? They thought I worked there. I reminded them that, a) I didn’t, and b) even if I did, I should be given the chance to defend myself from unbased attacks. Their response? “We are not a hype machine for the industry and will always defend the right of the consumer to be wrong” That is nearly verbatim. I mentioned that on their homepage it mentions that they welcome the input of “industry insiders” but their actions seem rather to the contrary. To their credit, they have since removed that line.

    Oh well. Jim Leff does seem to know his way around the restaurant world. it’s just a shame that he’s got this self-important and rather paranoid hang-up as well.

  2. BryanZ says:

    “The Restaurant That Must Not Be Named”? Wow, CH mods are terrible. Thanks for bringing this to my attention–a good deal of my posts get deleted too–this situation seems especially egregious.

    P.S. Thanks for the Z post the other day. I hope all is well.

  3. fuzzyT says:

    I recommend posting all references using the Kanji: 棗

  4. Ross Grady says:

    Hmm, it has been a while since I’ve had a post deleted from Chowhound (last time, I think, was when I was hassling somebody for wanting to try knives in a local store & then buy online). I will confess that I occasionally flag suspect posts (usually the ones where the person has never posted before & they suddenly appear to give a glowing “review” to some awful hole), so maybe the moderators feel like I’m on their side, I dunno. Or maybe since I use my real name, there’s less concern about me being a shill.

    Or maybe I just haven’t posted about Jujube enough lately 😉

    I just mentioned it in passing in a post . . . I’ll watch it & see what becomes of it.

    Have you all had the experience of having posts deleted without notification of any kind? That’s happened to me once or twice, and that’s what *really* yakks me off. I gotta start composing offline so I can at least have a copy of ’em somewhere . . .

  5. =R= says:

    Several years ago a similar thing happened to me at CH. It was my first experience there and I was so disgusted by it, I never returned. And I’ve never missed it. Luckily for me, since I live in the Chicago area, there are other on-line outlets for obtaining quality culinary information. I wish everyone were as lucky.


  6. Varmint says:

    Ross’ post is still up. I’m thinking about adding a comment on one of the threads dedicated to Jujube, but heaven forbid I get on their bad side. Heh.

  7. Varmint says:

    The ban continues. Today someone posted a mixed review of Jujube, complaining primarily about the service. I got the Chowhound feed on Google Reader, and it and the follow-up post (also complaining about the service) were promptly deleted from the site. So, even posts that are criticizing the restaurant are banned. Very strange, indeed.

  8. Tom from Raleigh says:

    I think there’s some perception that since Jujube (and Charlie) is (are) responsive to the local foodie community there’s some sort of bias. CH has been good to Jujube, however Charlie certainly gives to the CH community.

    The mods have an iron fist at CH. I respect their right to police their little corner of the web and expect that it’s an ardous task to fight the hordes of spammers and shills but the ongoing ban of Jujube and other “innocent” place is over the top. There’s no appeals process.

    Ross, BTW, I’ve found some of your wittiest posts deleted. It’s a shame.

    As a poster, the heavy hand of the mod makes me want to post less. In fact, when I was first onformed of the Jujube ban by Pat Hammond, I didn’t post of CH for a month.

    I see there’s a thriving blogosphere around the Triangle food scene. Perhaps the growth can be attributed to the limitations of CH.

  9. Varmint says:

    The ban continues, although many of us are trying to work around it. Bryan Z posted about the 20 course tasting menu Jujube is offering, and he didn’t name the restaurant. He even included a photo of the menu, but put the title, “The Restaurant That Must Not Be Named” on it. Pretty funny stuff. I really don’t get these people, and having been a moderator with eGullet for years, I know how hard it can be to keep control on things. This, however, is just ridiculous.

  10. Varmint says:

    Of course, BryanZ’s post and all those following it have been deleted. I’ve asked Charlie to write an open letter to Chowhound, and I’ll post it here.

  11. Ross Grady says:

    I tried to post a query to the Site Talk board, regarding restaurant bans in general, but they deleted it. It did mention Jujube as an example, but I tried pretty hard to be sane & even-handed. I can understand them deleting posts if they *think* there’s something fishy going on, but deleting meta-posts about the deletions?

    In any case, this is what they told me after they deleted my most recent South board Jujube-referencing post:

    “Sorry about this, but we’d like to explain why your posting was deleted. We are not currently accepting postings about Jujube, because we’ve seen a slew of suspicious postings about it. Your posting wasn’t suspicious at ALL, but the problem is this: if we let good posters like you post about it, it could open the door for more shenanigans. We’re not sure who’s responsible, but for the time being, we think it prudent to take this one place “off our table,” so to speak.”

    Not having seen any Jujube-related shenanigans, not even among the handful of posts I’ve seen & then watched disappear, I’m sort of at a loss. Is it a vendetta masquerading as the above, or was there some kind of zombie Jujube-shilling spambot attack that we never saw?

  12. Joe says:

    The phrase “zombie Jujube-shilling spambot attack” needs to be memorialized somehow. It’s awesome. 🙂 🙂 Maybe I’ll put it in my .sig.

  13. Varmint says:

    I was at a meeting the past few days and ran into one of the editors of Chow.com. She informed me that the moderation of Chowhound is not under the control of Chow — apparently, Jim Leff made sure that he could continue to moderate the site as he wanted. The interesting thing was that the Chow editor rolled her eyes when I asked about this, informing me that this is a constant issue for them, with no power to do anything about it.

  14. durhamfood says:

    So let me get this straight: all these ‘policies’ are for nothing, and whatever this one dude says goes?

    And this is one of the most ‘reputable’ food sites in the country?!!?

  15. detlef says:

    It’s not so much a matter of “what this one dude says goes”. Leff is the founder of Chowhound and, obviously takes his site pretty seriously. They merged with CHOW because he needed the jack to keep running his site. I think the deal here is that he wanted to maintain Chowhound’s sense of prupose. If you read most of his posts, dude thinks that basically every other food website is crap and all his policies at Chowhound are there to keep it from becoming Zagat, etc.

    There could certainly be some validity to this. Again, I think that they throw the baby out with the bathwater from time to time, but, as has been said, it’s his site. Also, censoring the boards to the extent of deleting any points that challenge C-hound’s policies is rather pathetic.

  16. durhamfood says:

    Just for comparison, how strict are eGullet’s policies? How is that site run?

  17. Varmint says:

    eGullet’s policies are fairly strict, but they do a pretty good job of explaining the rules and applying them objectively. The key rules are that discussions are about food and no one attacks another. One can challenge another’s opinions, but no ad hominem attacks. Oh, and politics, religion, race, etc. are taboo unless they’re explicitly about food.

    There are a couple of other minor policies, but that’s about it.

  18. meatn3 says:

    I have been sitting here for sometime just disappointed beyond words about this situation.
    I have sporadically followed CH since ’99 or so, but until recently my Internet access was not dependable. Since I moved to Raleigh in June I have been able to follow CH & a variety of other food sites. I have had a few things deleted from CH. Most I eventually figured out, some I never could. My request regarding why were met with a copy of the policy on “site talk” followed by Jeff Leff’s follow-up to that policy.
    I’m glad I followed enough threads to read this. I had noticed that I couldn’t find threads I remembered, this explains it. I’m new to the area. I know none of you except through reading your posts in CH & Egullet. With any new source of info/advise I watch for awhile, compare their experience to my own & over time find whose voice most closely meshes with my personal interests/taste/quirks. I assume other frequent users of such sites do the same. Most of the folks who have commented here are voices I have come to respect, so this hits with a double whammy. And your voices give it credence. Since Charlie Deal is the focal point of this bit I’d like to say that I had become aware that he had a restaurant, but that was through other posters references to him. I never read the slightest whisper of a hint of self promotion from any of his posts. (And remember, being new to the area I have way too much time available to sit & read old, old threads!) Furthermore, my Durham ventures have been few, so I have not dined at his place,nor do I think I’ve even seen it!
    Most of the posters on CH seem fairly intelligent and capable of making informed decisions. I’m disappointed that the moderators seem to be vigilant to such an extreme. If there is a regional response to CH,I would like to be a part of it. I am still trying to figure out how to speak my thoughts on this to them individually. (Strong emotion renders my communication ability to that of a drunken 3 year old.)
    I am also amazed that they do not seem to realize that all worlds become small. I mean that in any industry or finely focused interest group those involved in a serious way generally become aware of each other over time. And any quick look at the south board reveals a very strong Triangle presence. Combine these and of course there will be awareness and relationships, personal & biz between many of those involved. CH should understand this and use some common sense. And if they are unsure, then they should ask.
    Just reread my rant, apologies for the length!

  19. durhamfood says:

    Furthermore, my Durham ventures have been few, so I have not dined at his place,nor do I think I’ve even seen it!
    Jujube is in Chapel Hill, not Durham. Charlie will be opening a place in Durham next year, though!

  20. […] John and headed for Jujube, an “almost Asian” restaurant which is the subject of a Chowhound scandal.  I had the blanched noodles with spicy yellow chicken curry, and it was fabulous!  They have a […]

  21. mypeaftepsy says:

    I am necessary wish to find

  22. Fuzzy says:

    The CH trend continues. Someone posted overnight a review of Jujube which was negative, followed by a reply which detailed someone else’s recent experience there.

    They have since been deleted.

    My impression of CH in the past several months is that there are significantly fewer informed contributors in our area. I myself have cut back severely on my posting in the SOUTH boards, and I haven’t started a thread there in quite some time.

    I am very pleased to have varmint show us the coldmud link.

  23. RayRoadie says:

    It’s the nature of bulletin boards in general. A version of this has happened at every bulletin board where I’ve participated. A core group forms, get comfortable and familiar with each other, and finally says all there is to say on the board’s given topic. They then move on, only to be replaced by a group of newbies who then repeat the pattern. The transition phase between the two groups is more than a bit boring for the veterans as all the group’s “basic knowledge” is being rehashed by the newbies. I think it’s called evolution.

    Charlie survived CH, CH will survive Charlie. Life goes on.

  24. detlef says:

    You know, I don’t entirely agree with everything Ray says. Certainly I agree with the last bit, and yes, life does go on. However, I had been a regular poster on chowhound for several years and in two different markets. On occasion, when I would go visit my old board, I saw many of the same names contributing there. So, I’m not sure if I buy the “people just more on”. In fact, there are two non-food message boards (that deal with entirely legal and moral hobbies mind you) that I have been and continue to be a regular poster for years. I also see the same names over and over and think of some as “friends”.

    It was always a love-hate relationship with Chowhound because they’d pissed me off a bunch of times (basically always because of their censorship policy). None the less, the sheer volume of traffic made it among the more relevant food message boards out there. Hell, look at e-gullet, a site who was ahead of them in terms of website format (remember the old chowhound? Christ that was some backwards-assed formatting (and one that Jim Leff defended until the bitter end BTW as far more user-friendly than the format that pretty much every sane person alive has agreed on works better)). You can log onto the southeast board on e-gullet 5 days apart and see nothing new added to the board. All the progressive and well run policies in the world don’t make up for the fact that nobody is saying anything.

    At any rate, once they pulled the crap they pulled against me and failed to show any degree of professionalism, I had to say enough is enough. And yes, I do think the number of regular posters who made the South board almost 50% about the triangle who got pissed and left as well really affected the board. At least in the short term. I think that, more than some natural evolution has caused the lack of interesting triangle discussion that Fuzzy references.

    By chance I happened to log onto Chowhound the other day and happened to catch the comment before it was deleted. Obviously I was upset to see that somebody didn’t enjoy their meal. Of course, for once I was happy that Chowhound was consistent in their banishment of discussion of Jujube 😉

  25. W says:

    As a longtime user of CH, I too gave up on the site due to the terrible mods and administration of the site. The above explanation about Leff retaining control over posts makes total sense….he may be the founder but he is also the reason the site is a business failure, the reason they had to sell out and the reason they have alienated oh so many great talented writers from posting there. Leff is like a rude doddering party host, wandering around the site and insulting people, and when it’s pointed out to him he shrugs and continues his tirades.

  26. Fuzzy says:

    We finally actually ate at Jujube this past Friday evening, dropping in with no reservation. Even with Graduation going on in Chapel Hill this weekend (plus Mother’s day) they found us a table somehow.

    The service was attentive, prompt, and professional, with just the right amount of relaxed friendliness to enhance the experience.

    My martinis from the bar were well crafted.

    Mr. Deal dropped by to ask us how we were doing, and I took the opportunity to explain to him that I’m the guy who once dropped into his restaurant for lunch and left without eating, stunned at the prices and subsequently posting on CH (which got deleted, but not before he could post a nice reply back). He was, as usual, gracious.

    Mea culpa.

    Not only was the food excellent (and we had enough left for a lunch after) but the relative price point to experience obtained was superior.

    So I was wrong (not *that* unusual), and gosh am I glad I was wrong in such a spectacular fashion. I hope to enjoy many more meals there in the future.

  27. R.B. says:

    So a parent of a Carolina-student-to-be asked “Recommendations for Chapel Hill.” My response briefly mentioned Jujube, along with SEVEN more stores and restaurants. The Mods asked me to repost without the ref to Jujube while they “investigate a problem with some postings about this restaurant.”

    Some long on-going investigation, huh? I nosed around and found this, which I intrepret to mean that someone at Chowhound has convicted Jujube of phony posting and they will forever ban any mention of the restaurant.

    Restaurateurs (or their friends, employees, PR firms, relatives, etc) who post phony testimonials or recruit others to post for them will be uncovered. Any subsequent discussion of the restaurant — from any poster — may be removed. We fight hard to preserve the site’s reputation for integrity and to ensure the trustworthiness of our resource.

    Some reputation for integrity, huh?

  28. Robert says:

    RB – exact same thing happened to me yesterday. I’m amazed by this, and far less inclined to use Chowhound now.

    On the plus side, googling “Jujube” and “Chowhound” led me to a couple of good local food blogs. So there’s that. Funny, as I was typing this I got a reply from CH, answering my “Why did you delete my post” question. They said …

    “We received your email, but, for site security reasons, we can’t go into any further detail. We hope that you understand.”


  29. blewgo says:

    I blame it on the bloggers, food groupies and foodies that have fallen in love with Jujube and Charlie and the way they promoted it endlessly. I’m sure it looked like self promotion to outsiders. Whenever someone posted that they had a bad meal there this same group attempted to prod them to change their view.

    Another possibility is that the food on the menu isn’t every one’s cup of tea and people ate there after all the buildup and were disappointed in what they were served. They may have reported what they found directly to Chowhound. Maybe Jim Leff read all the positive posts and decided to try Jujube when he was in town and the food on the menu didn’t suit his taste and he imposed the posting ban.

    Yet another possibility is Charlie himself. I think he is one of the most thoughtful, intelligent people posting on the Internet, but I’m sure some people are put off by restaurant owners posting. I personally think he should change his name and start his own blog.

    Don’t say they should have tried the special dinners because the regular menu should reflect what a restaurant is about.

    Those are my thoughts on what could have happened.

  30. Maura says:

    blewgo said: “Another possibility is that the food on the menu isn’t every one’s cup of tea and people ate there after all the buildup and were disappointed in what they were served. They may have reported what they found directly to Chowhound. Maybe Jim Leff read all the positive posts and decided to try Jujube when he was in town and the food on the menu didn’t suit his taste and he imposed the posting ban.”

    I don’t think that’s a legitimate reason to ban comments about a particular restaurant. If Jim Leff actually knows anything about food (and I can’t say if he does or doesn’t), then he should also know that what someone likes is decidedly subjective.

    My husband and I ate at Jujube for the first time last night. They have a great beer selection, the appetizers we had were terrific, the creme brulee was perfect and I can’t say enough about how good the service was. But we were a little disappointed with our entrees. That doesn’t mean that we think there’s some conspiracy among Charlie Deal’s friends and employees to make this restaurant seem greater than it might be. I would definitely go back. I’ve had some awful first meals in other restaurants and given them another chance.

    What really bugs me about the situation is CH’s unwillingness to discuss its decision with anyone, including Deal. I know it’s Leff’s right not to discuss it, but doing so would have gone a long way to instilling some good will within its membership.

    “Whenever someone posted that they had a bad meal there this same group attempted to prod them to change their view.”

    That’s definitely a problem, but it’s not specific to CH. It happens anywhere you can post your opinion about something. I’m endlessly surprised that food, which is supposed to bring people together, can be the reason for so much fighting.

  31. detlef says:

    Wow, this thread is like the Energizer Bunny!

    Blewgo and I have corresponded via e-mail regarding his theory and think I feel the same as Maura in terms of that. Mind you, if I may speak for Blewgo, he also intimated in one of the e-mails to me that he doesn’t think that justifies Leff’s actions so much as explains them.

    None the less, my best guess is the following. I mean this in all seriousness, not because of some grudge I have against him. I do, in all honesty, think Jim has a bone to pick with me and is rather spiteful by nature. He’s not bashful about his opinion of himself as I believe he’s referred to or refers to himself as the Alfa-dog.

    So, he’s got his way, he’s quite confident his way is the best way, and doesn’t really have much patience for anyone who feels otherwise. Case in point: How long did he defend the old format for Chowhound claiming it was far superior to the more standard format used by other forums?

    I don’t think it’s any coincidence that at the same time somebody came long to pay him for it, the format was changed. I can assure you that the guys scratching that check were not going to tolerate the archaic set up he used before.

    At any rate, I had gone around with him on numerous occasions. While I didn’t try to hide my identity or defend my restaurant, I often did defend the industry as a whole from what I felt were unfair attacks. This didn’t set well with him at all and he warned that he was not going to let his website turn into a “hype machine for the industry” going on to say that Chowhound was one of precious few places where consumers of any kind had a voice. Well, obviously both of these were BS. The kind of “hype” I was perpetuating was to challenge one persons claims that we should hold line cooks to the same standards we hold airplane pilots and surgeons and that I took issue to someone’s remark that a $5 breakfast at a local Mexican place was “delicious and satisfying, but at $5 a bit steep.”

    As for it being one of precious few platforms for consumers to express themselves… Well, let’s just say he must not go on-line much. You name a product, and one can find many sites devoted to people sharing their opinions on it.

    In his words, he would defend the right of the consumer to be wrong. I challenged that he was crossing the line when he not only defended that right but even sheltered them from rebuttal to the point of censorship. Obviously he bristled at the notion of censorship because that implied agenda. Of course, when you intentionally not only allow baseless comments to stand but also delete any post that challenges them, I think that agenda is rather obvious.

    Sorry, I’m going on and on. Long story wrapped up, like others, I was usually quick to call Jim on his crap. With that in mind, I don’t think it ever sat too well that, on the whole, the local Chowhounds were quite supportive of Jujube. I mean, here’s a guy who’s constantly proving to be a thorn in this guy’s ass, all the while, the very forum he’s created is actually an asset to the guy poking sticks. So, the one thing he could do is not allow his website to continue acting as way for anyone to spread goodwill about my place.

    To his credit, at least he’s deleting all posts about Jujube and not just the good ones. However, that they continue to say their investigating wrong doings and obviously are not unfairly implies a degree of guilt on my part. This much, quite frankly, doesn’t paint him in a very honorable light. One, I’m afraid, may be all to accurate.

  32. Maura says:

    @Detlef: “Mind you, if I may speak for Blewgo, he also intimated in one of the e-mails to me that he doesn’t think that justifies Leff’s actions so much as explains them.”

    Oh yeah. I should have been more clear. I don’t think Blewgo was trying to justify what Leff has done. My disdain was directed at Leff, not Blewgo.

  33. Dale Strong says:

    I too am a business owner that has recently incurred CH wrath on their blog site. I have been open for over three years as a diner and over a dozen as a pizzeria and deli. A post was given by someone in NYC (I am 100 miles north of NYC)that claimed my food was inedible and rotten and that French Toast and sausage were obviously frozen and microwaved. I was shocked at the post, which is totally false, and replied with a post. It and all other posts were deleted. I asked customers to write in and they were all deleted also. I have a strong dislike for their moderators as well as for a blog that doesn’t allow any refute to a business owner. Do they realize the hard work and dedication it takes to run a business, especially a restaurant? One person can write in that may never have even been there to trash the place for personal reasons, affecting business and staff moral, and there is no refute or removal of the untruths they allow. Shame on Chowhound!!! Writing to their advertisers and withdrawing support is the only action people have I guess.

  34. Bob says:

    Please be very careful and think twice before you post photos on Chowhound. If they like your images they claim they have ownership over your copy right and will not allow the removal of your images. Think twice before you submit ANY content to Chowhound.
    There are claims that they have even published a book and altered the posts of members as content.
    Chowhound stands for every thing a true hound should hate. Big corporate America running over the little guy with heavy handed moderation and what in my opinion amounts to little more than theft.
    I have emails from CH refusing to remove my images after I requested them to be taken down several times.

  35. Annie says:

    Moderators can be very capricious and unfair. It seems sometime that some Chowhounds wield the “report button” like a weapon and the moderators too often comply with the accuser. I know several Chowhounds who use the report button for any little infraction or they create a trumped-up infraction because they dislike certain posters or the poster has disagreed with them.
    I was banned from Chowhound. I had been on there for years and I contributed mightily. I was allowed back on, but restricted to the regional food boards.
    Has anyone ever been banned from Chowhound for posting negative comments about moderation from outside Chowhound, such as a blog, like this? 
    I want to start a blog so I can say what I cannot say on Chowhound and wonder if the would kick me out again if I did so and if I was critical of them?

  36. JACOB says:


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